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#1: Re: CIS cartridge/buffer/damper types... Author: roger,

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:44 am
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@Snailz,

Could you please introduce more information about spongeless damper CIS? Is it different from those spongeless cartridges list on E-bay?

I have been trying spongeless cartridge, auto-balance ink bottle CIS, modified cartridges, none of them appear to work well with Epson printer.
I dont want to single out any supplier here.

In fact, they are nothing but nightmare to me. I would never go back to a CIS because of a variety of issues including faulty chipset, poor quality, short-term life of CIS, clog ....etc

Have you ever tried "Spongeless Damper" CIS? are you selling it or you have source for it ?? Where can I purchase such design or it's just an idea of design? I would seriously to think about getting a better CIS.

Any information is appreciated.

Snailz wrote:
The primary types of CIS feed are:

Spongeless Damper
These are new models designed carefully to act as a buffer whilst still feeding the print head when printing. This type of unit contains very little ink, relying on the ink reservoirs outside the printer to supply it.

In all cases the cartridge/damper unit is designed to provide controlled ink flow to the print head.

#2: Re: CIS cartridge/buffer/damper types... Author: Martin, Location: South Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:19 pm
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Hi Roger, Ok.. Lots of questions here so I'll try to group and answer them as best as I can.

About ebay..
It's important to note that I have never used a CIS system from eBay.. My main reason for this is that when I started using CIS kits, they appeared to be very cheap and looking at the actual support provided by manufacturers, there seems to be little real help available. This still seems to be very true.

From reading various reviews from users who do buy from ebay retailers, there seems to be a main CIS kit by JWL Sales and then "clone" kits produced by other ebayers, usually in China. Most users seem to rate JLW over other ebay sellers but even then the feedback on JLW is varied and it's hard to be sure you're getting the right seller as well.

Spongeless kits

roger wrote:
Could you please introduce more information about spongeless damper CIS? Is it different from those spongeless cartridges list on E-bay?

The only spongeless system I have used so far has been from inkrepublic.com.. This uses a small "buffer" unit rather than a full cartridge. As far as I can tell the main reason for this is that the smaller unit allows it to be installed in a number of different printers instead of being limited by a full cartridge. (Of course you still need to have the correct auto-reset chip for your printer)

I have not looked at spongeless cartridges from other suppliers but information from manufacturers like MIS Associates seems to indicate that achieving a true spongeless solution is very difficult indeed.

Quote:
I have been trying spongeless cartridge, auto-balance ink bottle CIS, modified cartridges, none of them appear to work well with Epson printer.
I dont want to single out any supplier here.

In fact, they are nothing but nightmare to me. I would never go back to a CIS because of a variety of issues including faulty chipset, poor quality, short-term life of CIS, clog ....etc

Just out of interest, could you tell me which kits you have tried (even if you want to email me (martin AT allthefaqs.net)) and what sort of problems you experienced. The information would be very useful as I'm unlikely to look at ebay kits myself.

Quote:
Have you ever tried "Spongeless Damper" CIS? are you selling it or you have source for it ?? Where can I purchase such design or it's just an idea of design? I would seriously to think about getting a better CIS.

I am currently testing the InkRepublic.com spongeless damper system on R200, R300, C86 and C84 printers BUT using MIS Associates ink (R200/300 = epson dyebase, C84/86 = Ultrachrome equivalent) and so far found they work without clogging, running, etc...

However, I should note that the InkRepublic systems are not easy to setup initially due to the lack of time spent on enabling an optimum tube path. I'll be posting some information on how I resolved this issue with the R200 and C84/86 models soon though.

The only problem I have had so far is that the R200/300 printers didn't work properly with MIS Archival inks (using InkRepublic CIS).. I suspect this was due to the increased viscosity of the ink and pressure issues. I didn't try the same ink using the MIS CIS kit (for the same printers) but I'm assured it should have worked. This was probably because the MIS kit is part sponge/spongeless and thus stores ink in the cartridge ensuring the correct pressure. The InkRepublic spongeless buffers probably lacked the required pressure and thus failed to feed properly. Either way, use of Dyebase ink resolved the issue and works fine.

Quote:
Any information is appreciated.

Just as a final note... I would recommend taking a look at MIS Associates "Continuous Flow" (CIS) systems as well. Their CIS kits now seem to use a half and half (spongeless/sponge) cartridge design which is easy to install.. Support is excellent and the inks are always being used as a benchmark by CIS users, so they are consistently good.

Ink Republic CIS kits show a lot of promise, could use some improvements on tube pathways. I can't comment on their inks.

Hope that helps...

#3: Author: Martin, Location: South Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:02 pm
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Just as a small update... I realised that the smartest thing I could do was to provide reviews for the kits I've used to date so you can see the results here:

Ink Republic
MIS Associates

Hope that helps.. .

#4: Bubbles still cause a problem Author: Martin, Location: South Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:13 am
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In the process of testing things out with the spongeless damper system I've discovered that you can still hit problems with air bubbles in the damper.

The situation I hit yesterday was that suddenly the magenta was refusing to print and a couple of head cleans made it obvious that ink wasn't flowing properly.

Further examination of the buffer seemed to indicate that ink was there but so was a lot of air.

I haven't resolved the actual cause to my satisfaction but the only way I could restore flow was to use a syringe to pull ink through the buffer and remove a lot of foam and air bubbles through the line and buffer.

In all honesty this problem could well have been caused by the original installation when the tube clips were left on and pulled air back into the buffer because of the vaccum.. but I suspect the problem is that the actual buffer is not maintaining a tight fit to the head feed and allowing air to leak back in, instead of pulling ink from the bottles.

Either way I'll be watching this carefully to see what happens in the future.

#5: Spongeless damper system Author: Gasman,

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:38 am
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Have used the Ink Republic(IR) system for 6 months without too many problems with my Epson R1800. Using IR inks as well. Ink good on EAM paper but not as good on Gloss media. Probably need to be profiled.

Then the problems started! Impossible to get perfect nozzle check patterns, especially Y M Y. No obvious cause, no air in lines and reprimed dampers but still ? blocked nozzles ? Air bubbles Changing inkset to MIS using same IR CIS. No improvement. Tubing does appear to have "stiffened" up but no other obvious cause for the problems.

Went back to original carts and problems resolved. ie nozzles perfect pattern. Reinstalled IR + MIS still not working.

Have now removed the IR CIS and are now using Spongeless MIS carts(New) + MIS ink , perfect nozzle pattern again.

MIS inks do seem to give a closer match to the OEM colour gamut compared to IR Ink. My printer doesn't like the IR CIS with either IR ink or MIS ink.

Wonder if the pressure in the CIS system is inadequate to flood the head. Tried elevating the bottles but didn't help.

Have used a CIS for my 1160 printer for the last 10 years without problem. The R1800 with its smaller droplet size may be more fussy with the CIS. Not prepared to switch back to CIS with the R1800 as I really thought I had destroyed the head!

#6: Re: Spongeless damper system Author: Martin, Location: South Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:06 pm
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Gasman wrote:
Wonder if the pressure in the CIS system is inadequate to flood the head. Tried elevating the bottles but didn't help.

When I tried the R300 with MIS's archival inks I found that the same sort of problem existed there.

In the end I decided that the most likely cause was inadequate pressure behind the ink. If I'd had more time, and I may do this in future, I would have tested things more thoroughly by placing the reservoirs at different heights above the printer to increase pressure in the tubing but I suspect that the constant pressure system used in some of the JWL kits could be the necessary component.

We'll see but my own findings do seem to indicate that there are some issues with the buffer not holding enough ink above the head to provide the pressure required.

The solution to my problem was to use dyebase MIS inks instead and that has worked fine ever since.

#7: Author: Gasman,

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:07 am
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I tried elevating the bottles but that didn't improve things, at the extreme it leaked ink as evident by large ink smudges on the paper but still bad nozzle checks. My problem did seem to effect the Y M C ink positions and not the others to anywhere near the same extent. Difficult to be sure whether the problem was froth in the head or physical blocked nozzles. Used MIS nozzle cleaner and injected the head prior to replacing with the MIS spongeless carts filled with MIS pigment ink. As I said the IR system with their inks worked fine for about 5 months so what change occurred to give me the problems I am not sure about.

#8: Author: Anthonius,

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:05 pm
—

Snailz wrote:
The primary types of CIS feed are:

Spongeless Damper
These are new models designed carefully to act as a buffer whilst still feeding the print head when printing. This type of unit contains very little ink, relying on the ink reservoirs outside the printer to supply it.

In all cases the cartridge/damper unit is designed to provide controlled ink flow to the print head.

You are correct Snailz, the main function of Damper or ink catridges (Foam, half Foam or Spongeless etc) used as an ink reservoir and used as a pressure control of ink to the print head, but please take note, all of the ink catridges / damper had been design for work on gravity. (The ink reservoir was placed over the print head so the ink can flow down to the printhead by gravity)

Actually there is very different ink flow system from the original ink catridges system with the CIS, not only install the tube etc. The most important is "Ink surface tension". Why ???

Usually the CIS / CFS maker (sorry, I do not tell any brand) :

- Did not calculate the fraction factor of the ink pressure flow to the printhead. (eg, ID / inside diameter of the tube, the length of the tube and the sea level altitude of where the unit will be used / gravity)
- Did not calculate the ink consumtion of a printhead type ( eg, about the part F073000 printhead used for Epson 1160 was different ink consumtion with part F083000 used for 1290)
- Did not an ink Mfg (eg, viscosity & surface tension of the ink, Usually they used the bulk ink for refill but it is totally different between refill system and CFS/CIS system)

roger wrote:
Have you ever tried "Spongeless Damper" CIS? are you selling it or you have source for it ?? Where can I purchase such design or it's just an idea of design? I would seriously to think about getting a better CIS.

If you do not know how the system works , better used part No. 1044238 but if you know how the system need, you do not need any kind of damper / catridges etc, just plug in the tube directly to the printhead. I`m sure it will work very well.

Gasman wrote:
Gasman wrote:
Wonder if the pressure in the CIS system is inadequate to flood the head. Tried elevating the bottles but didn't help.

You can solve your problem by change the ink (I didn`t talk about the "Brand") Ink for CIS / CFS need more higher surface tension than the refill ink.

Regards,
Retired E E
(R&D dept)

note,
I had done a CIS/CFS 6-7 years ago (at that time I must write the Atmel Eeprom as the autoreset chip and joint a single row of PVC tube as a flexible tube as you used it now also very easy to buy in the market but now I had been wash my hand in this line) Maybe this little clew can solve a most problem on the CFS / CIS line

(Mod Note: Reformatted to use bbcode. Makes it easier to read )

#9: Author: Martin, Location: South Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:19 am
—

Anthonius wrote:
- Did not calculate the fraction factor of the ink pressure flow to the printhead. (eg, ID / inside diameter of the tube, the length of the tube and the sea level altitude of where the unit will be used / gravity)

Obviously it would be ideal to calculate the perfect system for everyone but because people live at various altitudes, etc.. then I have to ask if the sea level issue is possible to overcome.

And at a guess I'm sure you could overcome this problem by elevating or dropping the ink reservoirs to compensate. Yes?

Quote:
- Did not an ink Mfg (eg, viscosity & surface tension of the ink, Usually they used the bulk ink for refill but it is totally different between refill system and CFS/CIS system)

I've heard this point made when referring to the problems with a lot of the "Universal" inks. I'd agree that use of a custom made ink made specifically for printer models is the best approach. That said, in the example given by Gasman, he's been using this ink successfully with the printer until now. So, I'm wondering why it suddenly started having problems. Perhaps the ink mix had altered, aged or seperated in some way?

Anthonius wrote:
If you do not know how the system works , better used part No. 1044238 but if you know how the system need, you do not need any kind of damper / catridges etc, just plug in the tube directly to the printhead. I`m sure it will work very well.

My experience would not recommend doing that. When there is no air bubble or sponge to buffer then there's nothing to counteract a freeflow.

I'm sure if you have the viscosity and all other factors tweaked to perfection that this would work but if you were to create an unbuffered flow to the head, the first print would start the flow and from there on you would simply end up with a syphon effect and the ink would continue to drain out despite the lack of demand.

Anthonius wrote:
You can solve your problem by change the ink (I didn`t talk about the "Brand") Ink for CIS / CFS need more higher surface tension than the refill ink.

The problem here is that you rarely get this sort of information from the ink supplier, mainly because no-one has this sort of technical knowledge. Also, I would have thought that there's a potential problem with the ink having a clogging effect if other precautions weren't taken.

Just to summarise.. It sounds like CISs kits (and event regular cartridges) are designed with buffers because the printers they feed are in varying locations (high air pressure, etc..). This means the conditions are not optimal and so the buffers provide a system to equalise the pressure, force, etc... behind the ink.

If I'm reading this right, this then seems to indicate that there will be some situations when a spongeless buffer might result in too much or too little ink delivery to the printer.

Thanks for identifying some more of the issues for CIS's especially the ink issues..

#10: Author: Anthonius,

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:30 pm
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Dear snailz,

First of all, I want to say very sorry about my messg, (I do not have any idea to discredit any CIS / CFS kit Mfg) actually they can make more better CFS / CIS or the other member or every person can make it by them self.

I had been build alot of direct ink system (CIS / CFS) without any damper etc, also put the ink bottle / reservoir (some time 60 Cm under the printhead or 40 Cm above the printhead depend of the machine / printer type and usage), It work very well, also used for industries, the unit run in fast/draft mode or normal mode for 20 hours a day on 365 days a year.

Snailz wrote :
My experience would not recommend doing that. When there is no air bubble or sponge to buffer then there's nothing to counteract a freeflow

Snailz, if it is possible to add / attach some pic in the messg, so it is more easy to make the explanation "How to do it"

[color=blue]Gasman wrote :
Have used a CIS for my 1160 printer for the last 10 years without problem

As I remember, 10 years ago, 1160 still in in our project paper and not alot of person know about it also not start to produce it.

Regards,
Retired E E

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