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HP L7780 CIS -> General HP88 CIS discussion

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#21: Author: KRKAci,

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:47 pm
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Wanted to send an update to the forum on what I found with my latest testing. Martin indicated that when the colored ink ran out that all the ink level monitoring would start working again... Well, I pulled one of the color ink cartridges as if it had run out of ink and I was replacing it and an interesting thing happened... Now ALL the ink levels are shown as unknown. I tried powering on and off and that still has not solved the problem.

I think HP is limiting ink reporting to only "Original" HP ink cartridges and has the firmware set up to turn it off if it finds a NON-HP cartridge. As Martin says not really a big issue for CISS users since you can monitor the ink levels in the external containers, but if you use refilled cartridges or OEM cartridges if the monitoring does not work it could be much more of a pain.

This was all in a NEW HP L7680 that was bought in Dec 2007.

#22: Author: Martin, Location: South Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:45 pm
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KRKAci wrote:
Well, I pulled one of the color ink cartridges as if it had run out of ink and I was replacing it and an interesting thing happened... Now ALL the ink levels are shown as unknown. I tried powering on and off and that still has not solved the problem.

Hmm... that's interesting..

Quote:
I think HP is limiting ink reporting to only "Original" HP ink cartridges and has the firmware set up to turn it off if it finds a NON-HP cartridge.

Given the age of your printer and the fact that HP licenses a lot of its chip technology from Canon it's probably fair to make an educated guess that HP have borrowed the "ink monitoring" = off, trick from Canon and possibly even upgraded the firmware on their printers... As I've said in relation to Canon this is pretty fair as the chip is designed to regulate it's own known ink supply. They have no way of knowing how long your own refilled supply might last so they can't be expected to take any responsibility for it.

Ah well... chalk that one up as another big print manufacturer using an approach known to inconvenience the refiller.

#23: Author: Martin, Location: South Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:45 pm
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Right, going back to the earlier discussion regarding modifying existing HP88 cartridges.

I installed one of these units on my L7680 printer and initially it seemed to work quite well but after about a week of sitting quietly I did a quick Print Quality printout and the result was pretty much a washed out, major ink starvation print that indicates there's a problem, more serious than the earlier refillable cartridges used as part of a CIS.

I'm going to pow-wow with my ink supplier tomorrow to see if he has any ideas and I've also adapted one of the cartridges using a much wider bore fitting in case the issue is actually one of the original ones impeding ink flow.

Anyways, right now I wouldn't necessarily recommend this modified cartridge approach for a little while.

#24: Author: Martin, Location: South Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:58 am
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Once again looking at the modified cartridge scenario...

This is getting rather strange and frustrating to the point that my other half has declared that I need to step away and get some head space before tackling this further. Good idea if only I'd take good advice Wink

Anyway, I opted yesterday to try a couple of things.

1. A smaller bore/diameter (approx 1mm) tube and fitting (to reduce the potential pressure)
2. A larger bore/diameter (approx 2mm) fitting with tube I've already used

I hooked both of these up to an ink supply and purged any air bubbles from the system using a syringe and blunt needle in the cartridge ink output port.

What quickly became apparent was that the smaller bore tubing was going to really slow ink down considerably with the rubber bulb requiring around 8 to 10 seconds to refill. This was quickly born out when I tested the cartridge in the printer itself. The printer was essentially gasping for ink with the pump/piston sounds repeating every second or so as the printer tried to force more ink into itself. Eventually the printer declared the small bore cartridge faulty and demanded a new one or else! so that obviously doesn't work.

The larger bore setup was somewhat better with the syringe test proving the bulb would refill in less than 2 seconds. However, for some reason, when installed in the printer it started to exhibit an increased pump/piston action as well. Whether this was due to poor placement or partial occlusion of the inflow hole when I glued the fitting on, I'm not sure but either way the printhead still displayed the same issues.

After a great deal of deliberation (and no small part of impatience) I opted to try a new printhead to ensure that the issue wasn't a damaged printhead and before hand checked that I was able to get a decent flow using the syringe just to be safe.

Unfortunately it seems that HP really do have some very bad QA procedures because the printhead displayed an issue I've seen before (ie: black banding in any yellow printing). Obviously it could be that my design has, in some way, caused the issue itself but given that the pressures should match the standard cartridge (I did some testing against a standard OEM cart) I'm more inclined to believe I got a crap printhead.

I do have another four on hand but rather than risk those all as well my next test will be when I'm fully in control of my temper Razz

, mind and sanity. I've also decided to try a different tack and adapt an existing cartridge by retaining the bag and fitting a tube fitting to the top of the internal unit (pictures will be forthcoming). That way the cartridge should retain any existing characteristics whilst increasing the capacity. Also the cartridge bag can act as a buffer between the external reservoir and the bulb assembly so hopefully it'll iron out any additional quirks or unintentional limitations I incorporated into my earlier attempts.

We shall see...

#25: Author: Martin, Location: South Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:45 pm
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Well as promised I tried my new design but to avoid fubar'ing a new printhead, if indeed my efforts had done so, I tried the old printhead. Thus equipped I tackled my planned, new approach such that; instead of ripping apart the foil ink reservoir bag, I drilled into it carefully at the top and then glued a barbed tube fitting to the top of it. Forced myself to leave it alone for the day to dry Smile

and then re-rigged it with tubing and an ink supply.

Few things here:

Priming
- I set things up so the reservoir I was using was all ready and the tube could be lowered straight into the ink in the reservoir (in this case that mean't having the tubing threaded through the lid and set to the correct depth already)
- I pulled a vaccum on the cartridge to remove the absolute maximum of air that I could using an 80ml syringe with about 40ml of ink already in it.
- This allowed me to suck the ink out of the cartridge but then (by holding the syringe vertical, pointing down) allowing ink back in to the cartridge (it only pulls about 10ml back).
- Repeated this a couple of times to be sure I'd gotten the air out and then gently forced an extra 20ml of ink into the cartridge bag and tubing being careful to stop air getting in again and then clipped the tube while it was still full of ink.
- I then removed the syringe and put the tube end into the reservoir and screwed the lid down so it was ready to draw ink
- Finally, using a syringe with a blunt needle I pushed it into the ink outlet on the cartridge and drew ink through the entire system, nice and slow to remove any lingering air bubbles and ensure the bulb was fully primed.

Tip: The rubber bulb has a non return valve in it that shouldn't let any ink flow back into the main reservoir but if there's air trapped in there the bulb will push back and ink will flow the wrong way. You need to massage the rubber bulb a couple of times to ensure that all bubbles or anything else that might be blocking the non-return valve from doing it's job have dissipated. If you don't you'll get a message from the printer later on telling you the cartridge is empty and replace it with no excuses.

Once that lot was done I reassembled the cartridge casing and gently pushed the modified inner into position with the tubing and fitting poking out of the top of the cartridge (which I'd cut away).

I found out about the problem with the non-return valve initially but once I'd solved that it was simply a case of popping it into the system and away it goes.

Long term I have some concerns that the buffer effect I've incorporated into this particular design may fail somewhat but so long as no more than a couple of ml of air get in it should continue to function ok.

Once I've managed to clear the printers purge system of the black ink that's seeped to the yellow side of the printhead I'll be replacing the old one with another new one that should, all being well, work perfectly (different batch) and we'll see how we go from there.

I'll pop some pictures up sometime soon when I've had a chance to recharge the camera battery but here's what I spent my day doing... Smile

#26: Author: aab1,

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:06 pm
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Thanks for all the details.

On your mod you are using original HP cartridges right? Do they bother you each time you run out of ink? It seems very 2000 pages or so I get this warning on mine and it cancels the print job and I have to restart it.

I never had this issue when using original HP cartridges on the CIS on my older HP printers. If I were to put the original HP cartridges/chips back, would it finally stop bothering me about non HP ink? Or is there no way to stap this? None of my other HP printers ever did this.

By the way I have a software/driver issue with this printer and was wondering if I'm the only one: Whenever I ask for a large amount of prints that are relatively complex with graphics, like 100 copies or more, the first 10 or so pages will print fine but then the computer starts getting slower and slower, as does the printer (due to the slowing down computer), eventually it gets so slow the computer just gives up on the print job and stops it after say 20 pages, as if it was done, with no error or anything. I constantly have to do small 25 page batches, but I normally do 500-2000 page or more print jobs (my L7780 is already at about 8000 prints in just 1-2 months).

Have you ever printed a complex graphic 100 copies or more on an L7000 series and did it work? IS this a problem built into the drivers I have to live with for as long as I have this printer (or HP makes a fix) or do I simply have a bad/corrupt installation? I must say I did try several re installs with no success, but they may not have been proper re installs.

So am I the only one that can't print 100 complex pages on an L7000 series?

By the way, 9110 would print independantly from the computer, it would send the entire print job, even complex ones, to the printer's memory, and then the computer disconnected from the printer and the printer printed the job on it's own built in computer and memory, is there any way to get this behavior from an L7000?

Thanks

#27: Author: Martin, Location: South Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:49 pm
—

aab1 wrote:
Thanks for all the details.

On your mod you are using original HP cartridges right? Do they bother you each time you run out of ink? It seems very 2000 pages or so I get this warning on mine and it cancels the print job and I have to restart it.

In truth it happens every time I turn the thing on or change a printhead, cartridge, etc... which I've been doing a lot lately.
EDIT: Think I misunderstood your question there... I don't use the original HP chips at all... I've got autoreset chips installed so whilst the cartridge assembly is the same (with modifications) the chip is definitely not HP.

Have you been able to continue to use standard HP chips on these printers and just refilling them then?

Quote:
I never had this issue when using original HP cartridges on the CIS on my older HP printers. If I were to put the original HP cartridges/chips back, would it finally stop bothering me about non HP ink? Or is there no way to stap this? None of my other HP printers ever did this.

It's something that HP have picked up from Canon's own chip design and functionality. Canon doesn't bug you every 2000 pages but it does force you to declare the printer out of warranty if you continue which HP does and BTW, you'll notice that the printer does store this information in memory as you can see on the self test printout. So beware if you're thinking of warranty return.

Quote:
By the way I have a software/driver issue with this printer and was wondering if I'm the only one: Whenever I ask for a large amount of prints that are relatively complex with graphics, like 100 copies or more, the first 10 or so pages will print fine but then the computer starts getting slower and slower, as does the printer (due to the slowing down computer), eventually it gets so slow the computer just gives up on the print job and stops it after say 20 pages, as if it was done, with no error or anything. I constantly have to do small 25 page batches, but I normally do 500-2000 page or more print jobs (my L7780 is already at about 8000 prints in just 1-2 months).

Not seen that so much but I have seen something different that smells of driver or print spooler issues. My other half has found that the last half of the last page doesn't print and sometimes she'll send 20 copies and get only 5 or so... No idea why but then my main server has been experiencing problems of late so it could be related.. somehow I have my doubts though.

Quote:
Have you ever printed a complex graphic 100 copies or more on an L7000 series and did it work? IS this a problem built into the drivers I have to live with for as long as I have this printer (or HP makes a fix) or do I simply have a bad/corrupt installation? I must say I did try several re installs with no success, but they may not have been proper re installs.

Frankly HP drivers are foooking awful, bloated pieces of rubbish and every once in a while they put out new ones that create more problems than older ones.. Not sure what the best ones are re: the L7000 series but I am looking.

Quote:
By the way, 9110 would print independantly from the computer, it would send the entire print job, even complex ones, to the printer's memory, and then the computer disconnected from the printer and the printer printed the job on it's own built in computer and memory, is there any way to get this behavior from an L7000?

Not sure... it should be possible to send everything to spool but at a guess, having seen the way that HP have "improved" some of their newer laser printers it's possible that they've actually reduced the memory in these models making them much more reliant on the operating system and the print spooler there. That's just a guess mind but I do know that there's quite a few people finding out the hard way that HP have seriously knackered a number of network setups through this little trick.

One thing that may be worth trying is to change the way you connect to the printer (assuming you're using the LAN function). If you recreate the port you use to connect to the printer so that it's a "Standard TCP/IP port" rather than the HP variety that may well solve the problem.. It has worked elsewhere... That and playing with the print spooler options.

Hope that helps.

#28: Author: aab1,

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:02 pm
—

Quote:
Have you been able to continue to use standard HP chips on these printers and just refilling them then?

On my other printers, I had NEVER gotten an auto reset chip and NEVER got any warnings about ink. Have you ever tried it with an original HP chip? It might get rid of the problem entirely (it does on older HP printers, HP printers are refill friendly and do not do anything to annoy refillers, at least not my previous models).

Quote:
It's something that HP have picked up from Canon's own chip design and functionality. Canon doesn't bug you every 2000 pages but it does force you to declare the printer out of warranty if you continue which HP does and BTW, you'll notice that the printer does store this information in memory as you can see on the self test printout. So beware if you're thinking of warranty return.

If you read the warning correctly, it says it will only cancel warranty repair IF the damage was a direct result of using non HP ink, for any other problem, they don't care if you refill or not (it's law anyway, they cannot cancel your warranty for not buying their supplies, it's illegal).

Quote:
Frankly HP drivers are foooking awful, bloated pieces of rubbish and every once in a while they put out new ones that create more problems than older ones.. Not sure what the best ones are re: the L7000 series but I am looking.

That's strange, I had never ever had an HP driver problem until the L7780.

Quote:
Not sure... it should be possible to send everything to spool but at a guess, having seen the way that HP have "improved" some of their newer laser printers it's possible that they've actually reduced the memory in these models making them much more reliant on the operating system and the print spooler there. That's just a guess mind but I do know that there's quite a few people finding out the hard way that HP have seriously knackered a number of network setups through this little trick.

My 9110 had 128 MB RAM, my L7780 has 96MB RAM, yet it can't even print a 10k document without relying on the computer the whole time.

Quote:
One thing that may be worth trying is to change the way you connect to the printer (assuming you're using the LAN function). If you recreate the port you use to connect to the printer so that it's a "Standard TCP/IP port" rather than the HP variety that may well solve the problem.. It has worked elsewhere... That and playing with the print spooler options.

I now have it connected by USB, I had tried Wifi and still had the same problem. My router just died and I don't intend on buying another one (apparently routers only last 1-2 years, I smell planned obsolecence here, there's NO reason a router couldn't last 10 years, they're probably made to self destruct after 1-2 years so I won't get fooled by that again) so network options are out for me.

Thanks for the info.

#29: Author: Martin, Location: South Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:21 pm
—

aab1 wrote:
Quote:
Have you been able to continue to use standard HP chips on these printers and just refilling them then?

On my other printers, I had NEVER gotten an auto reset chip and NEVER got any warnings about ink. Have you ever tried it with an original HP chip? It might get rid of the problem entirely (it does on older HP printers, HP printers are refill friendly and do not do anything to annoy refillers, at least not my previous models).

Well I know I get errors on this model but I'll see about trying it with a standard chip sometime. It'd certainly help if true but somehow I'm expecting them to say "I'm empty" as with Canons... We'll see.

Quote:
If you read the warning correctly, it says it will only cancel warranty repair IF the damage was a direct result of using non HP ink, for any other problem, they don't care if you refill or not (it's law anyway, they cannot cancel your warranty for not buying their supplies, it's illegal).

Ah... but why would I actually read the warning being a hot blooded male n'all Very Happy

... Ok... thanks for that tip. I'm aware they have some limitations but worth knowing the small print.

Quote:
Quote:
Frankly HP drivers are foooking awful, bloated pieces of rubbish and every once in a while they put out new ones that create more problems than older ones.. Not sure what the best ones are re: the L7000 series but I am looking.

That's strange, I had never ever had an HP driver problem until the L7780.

Well for the K550 and on, I've had nothing but trouble, likewise seen similar issues with the others, especially when network printer are concerned.

Quote:
My 9110 had 128 MB RAM, my L7780 has 96MB RAM, yet it can't even print a 10k document without relying on the computer the whole time.

Could well be your spooler settings then.. You could try setting it to print when sent to spooler rather than immediately.

Quote:
I now have it connected by USB, I had tried Wifi and still had the same problem. My router just died and I don't intend on buying another one (apparently routers only last 1-2 years, I smell planned obsolecence here, there's NO reason a router couldn't last 10 years, they're probably made to self destruct after 1-2 years so I won't get fooled by that again) so network options are out for me.

To be honest it's not so much planned obselescence as poor build quality and parts which is the same the world over. Take a look at some of the kitchen appliances our parents still have (Kenwood mixers being a case in point), we have one we inherited and my mum has one she's had since I was born.. Still going strong after 30+ years... You can't buy that quality now unless you pay hundreds for it. Same with computer equipment.

#30: Author: aab1,

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:38 pm
—
I'd be curious to know what happens with HP chips on the cartridges. Please let me know if you try it.

About the router not being planned obsolescence and being just built cheap, that pretty much means the same to me, building it cheap is a way to include planned obsolescence in a way.

About about the K550 drivers, well the K550 is HP's biggest mistake ever, I wonder if there's a single one out there that actually works. I returned 4 in 4 days with the same problem before giving up. All iser reviews also mention the same problem. The K550 is a broken product out of the box in every case it seems.

I meant printers before the horrible K550 that ruined HP's reputation. At least this L7780 is still working great after about 8000 prints, but the driver issue is really annoying.

Thanks

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